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| Name: Debra | Date: Mar 29th, 2006 3:16 AM |
| Sorry Paula- I meant to put my name in and type your name as who I'm addressing. I'm just too tired !! ↑ |
| Name: Paula | Date: Mar 29th, 2006 3:24 AM |
| On the surface, Debra, I may be inclined to agree with you. But upon deeper investigation, I disagree with you. Christopher West stopped into my area a couple of years back so I have studied the Theology of the Body a bit, that Jenna mentioned earlier, and quite frankly it hits the mark right on! I don't believe that we should dismiss words of wisdom just because the person speaking those words may not have had personal experience themselves. It is possible that they are being vessals for God. What is truth will be sound, no matter who is speaking it. ↑ |
| Name: Lizzi... | Date: Mar 29th, 2006 6:00 AM |
| After more than 11 years in bed...& some blunt honesty...my husband truely tries to not only please himself but myself as well...You have to be completely honest with each other about how satisfied you are & what satisfies you...& if he gets off & leaves you hangin...don't let him forget it...he'll try harder next time... Last time my hubby was around...he admitted that the position was actually painful for him eventhough I was getting off...& said..."was taking one for the team"...lol...gotta love 'em... ↑ |
| Name: 3 time nursing mom | Date: Mar 29th, 2006 8:04 AM |
| Lizzi, lol! You lucky gal. I think if more people realized, like your husband, that they are indeed a 'team', there would be a whole lot less troubled marriages. As for this "Theology of the Body" that has been brought up, this sounds interesting to me. Any references as to where I can get more information? I would like to check further into it. ↑ |
| Name: Debra | Date: Mar 29th, 2006 2:07 PM |
| You know what Paula I absolutely agree with you- I think we both brought up some valid points- I'm not sure who Christopher West is. Maybe you can fill me in. Thanks for having a great adult debate- you can only learn from them as far as I'm concerned!! ↑ |
| Name: Paula | Date: Mar 29th, 2006 9:40 PM |
| Christopher West's website is www.theologyofthebody.com A good introduction to the Theology of the Body is a Christopher West article here. Keep in mind that this is a very basic introduction, sort of like what a menu is for a dinner. It is not the dinner, just a description of it. http://www.theologyofthebody.com/artic le13.asp http://www.catholiceducation.o rg/articles/sexuality/se0055.html For a bit further study of the Theology of the Body, you may want to check out these websites: www.theologyofthebody.net and http://www.baltimorecat holic.com/tob/1.html thi s last one has Pope John Pau II's exact homilies that are the collection which is called the Theology of the Body. This is the meat and potatoes of the Theology. Well, I guess that should be enough to get you started. ; ) ↑ |
| Name: Lizzi... | Date: Mar 29th, 2006 9:42 PM |
| Ok...Ya'alllllll crack me up...sorry didn't read all the post till now...now have to voice my opinion on the subject... I'm not Catholic & don't understand all that but rather Christian...everything I"ve been taught has come straight from the Bible...sooo hopefully won't get in trouble for posting scripture on here...but..here goes... Hebrews 13:4 Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterrs God will judge. In reading this...my opinion is...that if my husband & I choose to use sex toys...that's ok.... Yes we both get pleasure from using toys...together...& when we're apart for long periods of time as his job sometimes requires...apart...using them apart..(something we discussed & agreed upon to help controll sexual urges & stress)...you don't get the same satisfaction you get using them together...an orgasm when you're not 'together' us merely physical...but when together...weather it be the vibrating ring...or feather duster...or no toys at all...it's an entirely different type of satisfaction!!! unexplainably better & fully satisfying... We don't use lifelike toys...but do have fun with others...including things you would not expect for that use...he he... something to keep in mind...is being completely honest & can at times be frustrating & hurtful...but...may be the only way to help each other...is sometimes amazingly helpful... ↑ |
| Name: Paula | Date: Mar 29th, 2006 9:46 PM |
| Here are two excerpts from Christopher West's website. This excerpt is about who he is: About Christopher West Christopher West is a research fellow and faculty member of the Theology of the Body Institute. He is also one of the most sought after speakers in the Church today, having delivered more than 1000 public lectures on 4 continents, in 9 countries, and in over 150 American cities. All three of his books – Good News About Sex & Marriage, Theology of the Body Explained, and Theology of the Body for Beginners – have become Catholic best sellers. Christopher has also lectured on a number of prestigious faculties, offering graduate and undergraduate courses at St John Vianney Seminary in Denver, the John Paul II Institute in Melbourne, Australia, and Creighton University’s Institute for Priestly Formation in Omaha. Hundreds of thousands have heard him on national radio programs and even more have seen him defending the faith on programs such as Scarborough Country, Fox and Friends, and At Large with Geraldo Rivera. Of all his titles, Christopher is most proud to call himself a devoted husband and father. He and his wife Wendy have three children and live in Lancaster County, PA. ↑ |
| Name: Paula | Date: Mar 29th, 2006 9:48 PM |
| This excerpt is an article he wrote. Body Language: Commentary on the Intersection of Faith, Sex, & Culture By Christopher West Why Do Men Look at Porn? Oprah Viewers Want to Know A couple weeks ago I happened across Oprah’s web site and noticed that her show that day was called “Why do men do that?” I’m not a regular Oprah viewer, but I tuned in that day to see a panel of “experts” on male behavior, including Jay Leno, explain why men look at pornography, go to strip clubs, and cheat on their wives. First of all, ladies, be assured, not all men do these things. One would have thought by watching Oprah that faithful men were extinct. Not so. But, alas, the pornographic culture has seduced a great many men. Why? All Jay Leno and his panel of friends could offer were excuses. Many of the women in the audience were visibly and audibly pained as they were told in so many words to “get over it” because “it’s no big deal.” Why do a great many men look at pornography, go to strip clubs, and cheat on their wives? Because the human heart has been twisted by lust. God created sexual desire to be the very power to love in the divine image. This is what enabled the first man and woman to be naked without shame (see Gen 2:25). They loved rightly, and there is no shame in loving as God loves. But since the dawn of sin, sexual desire has become inverted, self-seeking. We cover our bodies in a fallen world not because the body is “bad,” but because the body is so very good and – when we are in touch with our own goodness – we instinctively feel the need to protect the body from the degradation of lust. In men, inverted sexual desire tends to seek physical gratification at the expense of women. When lust takes control of a man’s heart, it seeks release in whatever outlet presents itself. This is exactly what the porn industry capitalizes on. Why does all of this pain women so much? Because women want to be loved and cherished for who they are as persons, not for the sexual release they offer men. The opposite of love is not hatred. The opposite of love is to use someone merely as a means to an end. This is what lust leads men to do – use women rather than love them. Women don’t simply want their husbands to direct their lusts exclusively towards them, as if this made a man “faithful.” As our late Pope John Paul II once pointed out, a husband can commit “adultery in his heart” with his own wife if he treats her as nothing but an object for his selfish pleasure. I know it’s a cliche, but why do so many wives claim “headache” when their husbands want sex? Could it be because they feel used rather than loved? Marriage does not justify lust; it is not a ticket to treat a spouse as a means of selfish pleasure. A woman who is the object of lust soon realizes, “You don’t love me; you don’t need me. You’re only interested in a means to your own gratification, and you can get that anywhere.” When the name of the game is self-gratification, any outlet will do. In this view, the Church’s teaching on sex seems tailor made to “keep me from having a good time.” But when the name of the game is self-donating love, everything the Church teaches seems tailor made to help me overcome lust and learn to love as God intended in the beginning. Bingo. The truth of the Church’s teaching on sexual love is confirmed in the pain and heartache of those who are immersed in lust. Would that someone on Oprah’s panel could have validated women’s pain and encouraged them not to settle for men enslaved by lust. ↑ |
| Name: Debra | Date: Mar 29th, 2006 10:48 PM |
| Sorry Paula- but I have to disagree to some extent. Yes I agree with you all the way until your lust philosophy. I want my husband to love me - and I want him to lust me. I know I'm going to hear it for this one- but here it goes!!!... one night me and the girls were all going out and one was pissed that her boyfriend was going to a strip club for a bachelors party. In a drunken stoober we decided we were going to go to see what all the hype is about. Now you are speaking to someone who had to take sexuality/humanity in college over the summer because it was the only elective open at the time I needed. In that class they had a field trip to an adult bookstore. I thought of an excuse not to go because I thought it was so disgusting. In a way I'm glad I took the class because I was so prude and close minded. It actually spoke of all religion and their teachings. It talked about how to speak to your kids about sex when you have them and it also talked about the education of aids because back then people were all saying you only get it if your gay or do drugs.- Anyways- my girlfriends and I went to this gentlemens club. It was VERY clean compared to the other bars. VERY expensive to drink. And really good music. We all went in hiding behind each other and sat at a table. First off- there were just as many woman there as men. Second- the girls were all on stage with bouncers all around- they could see but they couldn't touch. Yeah they gave lap dances but it was harmless- the guys couldn't touch in anyway. Third the women were really ugly! I mean nothing that my husband would ever leave me for, I would hope!! This was before I knew him. Since then we always talked about going there sometime when we are in a "crazy" mood feeling reckless and carefree.(However this hasn't happened yet and we've been married 8 years!) Not to be with anyone else. But just pretty much to get him horny! I am confident enough with myself as a person to let him look- because I know what I have to offer is far more than anything that is out there. I personally would be much more worried about him going to a regular bar- then one of those. No one is there to hit on anyone. They're there to look and go home to what they've got. The bars on the other hand, don't have those "no touch' rules- and I swear have you gone out with your wedding band on lately??? If anything I swear it becomes a challenge or something. I actually had a guy say "you're married- good that means there will be no strings attached"- my girlfriend and I were just out for chicken wings and beer. I wanted to throw the beer in his face. I agree with Lizzi- and you Paula- if these "tools" are utilized in the proper manner it could be very disruptive of your marriage. But it also if used in the proper way- and if your confident in yourself as a woman- and confident with your marriage- you could utilize these "tools" to keep your marriage happy. I sound like such a nympho- and I'm not trust me. I've never even touched a vibrator before- so really i'm not- but who knows after twenty years of marriage I'm gong to do whatever I can to keep our sex life happy and healthy. I know what you are saying- that it should be sacred and it is a sacrament. But it can still be sacred and fun as well. You must remain faithful- to eachother and NOONE else should be added to the equation if you know what I mean. I had to crack up at Lizzi's remark though- I love how she has toys but no "human size" ones!! Oh well ladies- hope you don't think less of me that I'm loving my man anyway I can!!! Have a great day! ↑ |
| Name: Paula | Date: Mar 30th, 2006 2:29 AM |
| Debra, I think the difference in opinion is not so much the difference of opinion as it is the understanding of the term "lust". From what I have read of your post, I don't think what you want from your husband is to lust for you, what you want for your husband is to have Sexual Desire for you. There is a very big difference. Sexual Desire is not lust. Sexual Desire is very healthy and natural. God created Sexual Desire to be a blessing, and it is very important in a marriage. Sexual Desire makes sex very fun. It is very good for a husband and wife to Desire each other. Lust on the other hand is sexual desire gone awry. It is not healthy or natural. Lust is when a man or a woman looks at someone else and sees not a person, but a way to have self satisfaction. Lust is what a man feels for a prostitute. Men who feel lust towards their wives are not respecting their wives. People who feel lust do not really care ultimately if it is their spouse they are with, just that they are with some person or thing that will be a means to satisfy the sexual itch they are feeling, be it their spouse, a prostitute, some photograph, movie, or their hand. It doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is to scratch that itch and bring about orgasm and desire for themselves. Ultimately it really doesn't matter if the other party involved gets pleasure also, unless the other party getting pleasure means more pleasure for themselves. Sexual Desire leaves room for the other person's pleasure also, even sometimes at the expense of their own pleasure. Lizzi's husband is a great example of a man who has intense Sexual Desire for his wife. With Sexual Desire not abused, intense bonding, pleasure, and fun is shared by both parties involved. Lust, abuses Sexual Desire. With Lust, pleasure is sought only for the self, not the other person. Fun can ensue with lust, but only if it is a way for the person who is experiencing the lust to experience pleasure. If the person who is experiencing lust does not gain any pleasure from the fun, they will not even consider doing it (note how many men want their partner to do things, but are not willing to do the same thing back). The only reason a lustful person will do something they don't want to do, is if they think it will gain them something. And with Lust, there is no room for bonding. No bonding can occur with Lust, it is impossible for bonding requires a person to put their partner ahead of their wants. Lust never considers the other persons wants unless it benefits them. So once again, I believe Debra, that what you want from your husband is not to lust after you, for that would mean you would want your husband not to care about your pleasure, only his. What you want form your husband is for him to have intense and pure Desire for you. ↑ |
| Name: Debra | Date: Mar 30th, 2006 3:59 AM |
| You are so right!! Okay Paula are you one of those sex therapist like on "Meet the Fockers"? Cause if your not you should be! I have a funny story that only proves your point. When we were married about a year around Halloween I got this great idea to dress up for my husband. I got this really sexy teddy, and as I was walking by the aisle I saw this huge blond wig that came down past my butt. (kinda like a dolly parton do when she was first starting- without the boobs!). Anyways I thought what the heck! So I got a babysitter and turned off all the lights and waited in the family room all dressed up. I yelled for him to bring me a beer please. He walks in a coudn't see anything but my profile- he dropped the beer and almost punched me right in the face!! He thought I was a stranger and I did something with his wife! After screaming its just me its just me...he turns on the lights and asked what the heck i was doing. By this time my hair was twisted around in my face so I looked like the purple guys on sesame street that go "yip yip yip". Trying to salvage the little I had left of the evening- I tried to kiss him and he couldn't do it until I had the wig off! He said he felt like he was cheating on me!! How great is that!! A totally true story and something that completely validates your point!! Thanks Paula- how much do I owe you and who do I make the check out to!! ha ha ha ↑ |
| Name: Paula | Date: Mar 31st, 2006 10:05 PM |
| Debra, I just saw your post today. It sort of got pushed down the line a bit. I've not seen "Meet the Fockers" yet. lol I'm glad I was able to explain myself to you so you were able to understand the point I was hoping to make. You are right, your story explains exactly my point. I think most married men are like that, really, they just get a bad rap because of how Hollywood and TV Land portrays them, and they keep their mouths shut when with their peers ("Don't kiss and tell"), which is also a sign of respect. Our intimate lives are sacred and private, and men who respect that don't talk about town, so the only ones that 'get heard' are the ones that cheat. Once again proof that when the minority open their mouths, there is a misleading impression that they are in the majority. lol - As for my fee, you owe me nothing...unless you want to send me enough for a DVD rental, then I can go out and rent "Meet the Fockers". I'll assume the check is in the mail. (( : lol ↑ |
| Name: Debra | Date: Apr 1st, 2006 3:35 AM |
| Thanks for some really good conversation Paula!! Its been a while!! ↑ |
| Name: 3 time nursing mom | Date: Apr 1st, 2006 6:45 AM |
| Paula, Thanks for the info on the Theology of the Body. It is turning out to be a fascinating read. Very fascinating! ↑ |
| Name: dee43701 | Date: Apr 2nd, 2006 4:21 AM |
| sorry dee my name is dee to and i have been posting not knowing there is another one on here so i changed mine jenna how long have you been married because the way you are talking it is either you have been married for a long time or not married for very long so you can still think of exciting things to do. me and my hubby have been together since i was 17 i am now 28 and before kids we had a very exciting and wild bedroom life first kid it went down a little but by the second kid we have ran out of ideas so we started out watching movies to give us ideas [ the funny thing is there was a couple of times we took down notes just so we could do everything right ]lol that was a funny night anyway now we go to the lions den about everyother month just to keep it exciting and so we don't get bored with each other and sleep in seperate beds ext. and i have read the bible and it says no where in there that masterbating is a sin my grandfather was a pastor and he encouraged masturbastion because everyone has urges instead of cheating or sleeping with the first person you see do it yourself and YOU DON'T GET AIDS OR ANYTHING ELSE FOR THAT MATTER so if you want to have a boring life with hubby keep it routine but if you want it exciting do things you never thought to do my hubby loves dildos and he is satisfied and dee this might sound goofy but seriously i did this to my hubby go to kazaa and download an e-book on how to do oral this is for men to read and have him read that it helps believe me he was good before after that OMG HOPE THIS HELPS YA AND JENNA IF YOU NOT GOING TO HELP DON'T SAY ANYTHING ↑ |
| Name: Paula | Date: Apr 2nd, 2006 1:50 PM |
| I thought what Jenna said was very wise...and wise things are helpful if you have an open heart for it. Needless to say it is not a popular line of thinking...but neither is sticking to a marriage when the going gets rough is popular these days. Popular is definately not always correct. I agree with Jenna's postings, and I have noticed she hasn't been around lately, which I personally think is unfortunate, for I have always found her posts very enlightening, even if they sound a bit harsh or judgemental, there is definate wisdom behind what she says. ↑ |
| Name: karen | Date: Apr 3rd, 2006 5:06 AM |
| i have never met a man who wasnt selfish. my husband calls his pleasure good luck sex before he goes to work. so if i dont that could mean a bad day. ↑ |
